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Duke Dawg
02-25-2013, 11:49 AM
Ok, we all know we have a situation here with our basketball coach. Do you keep him? or move on?

It's a problem that not even Mr. Wolfe can solve.

so what do we do?

I think we have no choice....we have to retain Brady. It was said by some, including myself, that if we felt a change needed to be made, it HAD to be made last year. We had 6 scholarships coming open. Having a coach in a lame duck situation as we have is a detriment to recruiting.

Further, we have 4 freshmen, plus one redshirt sitting out, already on the roster. Next year, we are looking at 11 guys who are underclassmen. that is WITH Brady. It reeks of a "learning year" no matter what.

but if we let Brady go....who is to say all those 11 guys will want to return? Players sign with school for the coach as much as anything. If we let Brady go and have some attrition, we could be looking at a team with maybe 7-8 scholarship players coming back....forcing any new coach to go out and recruit from the dregs and leftovers that have not already signed with a school in the spring, just to fill out the roster. We'll be using those 'ships on guys that are likely not CAA caliber. And they will be locked in for 4 years unless you want to go through the uncomfortable situation of forcing guys out.

With Brady, I think we are a .500 team next season but a major player the years after that.

without Brady, I think we are a 5 win team next season and very much an unknown commodity after that.

As I said on other threads.....the time to start over is not now. Things are moving positively. Unless we are willing to pay the big bucks ($500,000 minimum) and get a PROVEN commodity as a coach, a change would be a major setback for this program and continue to keep us in the dumps.

JMU2004
02-25-2013, 11:52 AM
I think he has to be extended, but I fear we will be a sub 10 win team next year. We have ZERO inside presence, though Bessick has moments.

jmu-fan-1981
02-25-2013, 11:52 AM
Ok, we all know we have a situation here with our basketball coach. Do you keep him? or move on?

It's a problem that not even Mr. Wolfe can solve.

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so what do we do?

I think we have no choice....we have to retain Brady. It was said by some, including myself, that if we felt a change needed to be made, it HAD to be made last year. We had 6 scholarships coming open. Having a coach in a lame duck situation as we have is a detriment to recruiting.

Further, we have 4 freshmen, plus one redshirt sitting out, already on the roster. Next year, we are looking at 11 guys who are underclassmen. that is WITH Brady. It reeks of a "learning year" no matter what.

but if we let Brady go....who is to say all those 11 guys will want to return? Players sign with school for the coach as much as anything. If we let Brady go and have some attrition, we could be looking at a team with maybe 7-8 scholarship players coming back....forcing any new coach to go out and recruit from the dregs and leftovers that have not already signed with a school in the spring, just to fill out the roster. We'll be using those 'ships on guys that are likely not CAA caliber. And they will be locked in for 4 years unless you want to go through the uncomfortable situation of forcing guys out.

With Brady, I think we are a .500 team next season but a major player the years after that.

without Brady, I think we are a 5 win team next season and very much an unknown commodity after that.

As I said on other threads.....the time to start over is not now. Things are moving positively. Unless we are willing to pay the big bucks ($500,000 minimum) and get a PROVEN commodity as a coach, a change would be a major setback for this program and continue to keep us in the dumps.

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Bring him back... it's the only thing in the cards for us right now.

JMUDuke25
02-25-2013, 12:27 PM
I think he has to be extended, but I fear we will be a sub 10 win team next year. We have ZERO inside presence, though Bessick has moments.

This. We have only five or six guys coming back. Every freshman better be a contributor or we're taking a step back next year.

capn kitt
02-25-2013, 12:38 PM
copied from other thread...

I am going to reluctantly agree. I have always believed that stability eventually wins, obviously as long as the coach is competent. I believed that about Mickey and we went on to win a NC. I'm not doing back-flips about Brady, but he is headed in the right direction.

How many of you use risk assessments at work? If we change coaches the best we could probably expect next year is near .500 again. But worst case is that some of our young core leaves and we are set back several years all over again. A good risk assessment says that changing coaches is not the best move, in part because the worst case is really bad.

Pitz
02-25-2013, 12:39 PM
Whatever happens, everyone will be upset here.

dunkanddukin
02-25-2013, 12:51 PM
I'm in favor of extending him at this point, for the reasons outlined above. I think he's grown in this job and we haven't had as much of the off court distractions that many pointed to in years past. Let's keep in mind that none of us were as good at our jobs in year 1 as we were in year 4 or 5.

I don't see things as bleak going forward either. We have all the freshman that are currently getting a lot of playing time (by freshman standards) and hopefully some inside help sitting on the bench learning how to play, or something. We will have a relatively experienced core next season and a very experienced group with 3 years together, no massive influx of transfers, in years going forward.

To lose a number of these guys now without allowing them the time to work together and grow together as a team would be a shame for one thing, a damn disgrace for another. We've thrown enough dirt on the MBB program over the last 15+ years, why not shine a little sunlight for once?

rufus
02-25-2013, 01:04 PM
I'll break tings down into two questions...


Q: Will we extend Brady?
A: Yes.

Q: Should we extend Brady?
A: Probably.


Based on what we've seen from King, Bourne, & Co. in the past, I can't imagine them firing a coach with a JMU career record of .500 or better. Even if that record is a shade under .500, I think that is more than good enough for our leadership. At JMU, it seems that nothing short of a losing record can get someone fired. Mediocre records (even when combined with off-the-field behavioral issues) are tolerated and even embraced.

And truthfully, I think it's probably best to retain Brady. From what I can tell, King would simply go out and hire the cheapest unproven assistant or small-school head coach available, and probably wouldn't bother to have anyone read his contract in the process. If we aren't going to bother to invest in our program, then I believe we could certainly do worse than Brady.

That said, I do not think Brady's next few years will be as strong as his first five. If I had to guess, we will be shopping for a coach in the spring of 2017 or 2018, once Brady's extension expires.

pgjmu
02-25-2013, 01:25 PM
yep, you get rid of Brady now, it is a total re-build. think 10 or less wins. Maybe in 4-5 years, if we hire an excellent coach, we are competitive again.

Keep Brady and we will take a step back next year with the loss of Devon and Goins. Although, if we get Semenov back, we may be better than .500. 2 years from now we are very well positioned.

so competitve next year and very good the following season vs. less than 10 wins and who knows what???

does this program need another re-boot? I dont think so.

dunkanddukin
02-25-2013, 01:37 PM
I haven't heard any whiff of this "off the court behavioral issues" stuff (?). Is this another reference to his living Crozet so his kids can attend a private Catholic school? The camps thing?

I don't want any detail, don't care, I just don't get where a statement like this is coming from.

jmudukes001
02-25-2013, 01:51 PM
To me, we move on with a new coach--- very little question to me. We can do A LOT better, and honestly, I don't see what people see about this going in the right direction this season. We can do a lot better. We are going to finish fifth or sixth in the worst CAA in 20 years and playing no one out of conference other than UCLA. No one goes to the games, even when we were in second place.

I and I am sure a lot of others want your last paragraph though--- a proven coach. This is the perfect time to do it and reignite the program. This is the time for Alger and King and Bourne to open the wallet and make the move. The additional $200K salary can be eaten up by additional attendance and merchandise and donations, etc.

There is a nice list of available coaches on the ODU board (not sure if I am allowed to copy it) that I have been looking at since their search is ongoing. Several names on there would be great--- either former head coaches or even very good up and coming assistants.

I think the admin will make a terrible statement if they extend him and basically say they are satisfied and think better days are ahead. But what a great statement if they hire a big name.

You are correct that next year may be weak with a new coach (but what will it be under Brady?) but the long-term results will be better. Better players, better scheduling, and better attendance.

Sounds like I am in the minority though, although maybe all of the people dressed as empty seats and all of the fans not posting here feel my way.

UofRfan
02-25-2013, 01:57 PM
Based on what we've seen from King, Bourne, & Co. in the past, I can't imagine them firing a coach with a JMU career record of .500 or better. Even if that record is a shade under .500, I think that is more than good enough for our leadership. At JMU, it seems that nothing short of a losing record can get someone fired. Mediocre records (even when combined with off-the-field behavioral issues) are tolerated and even embraced.

I'm thinking your off here, because they dont have to fire Brady. The Contract is up. In this case you can go by your high and mighty standards of competing for championships or ncaa's every 4 years (someone has this language and can post it) that haven't been met and it costs nothing to move on.

rufus
02-25-2013, 02:18 PM
I haven't heard any whiff of this "off the court behavioral issues" stuff (?). Is this another reference to his living Crozet so his kids can attend a private Catholic school? The camps thing?

I don't want any detail, don't care, I just don't get where a statement like this is coming from.

I wasn't referring to Brady. And I didn't say "court".

HyperDuke
02-25-2013, 02:24 PM
No one goes to the games, even when we were in second place.

Someone wasn't at Saturday's game...

Try actually attending before spouting off with half-truths on the internet, bro. Or at least acknowledge the well-attended games. Otherwise, I & many others here will ignore you as a lying, agenda-driven fool.

purplehazed
02-25-2013, 02:38 PM
I'm seeing places that MeadWestVaco has given VCU $3,000,000 for a practice facility, score.

JMUDukes2014
02-25-2013, 02:48 PM
Someone wasn't at Saturday's game...

Try actually attending before spouting off with half-truths on the internet, bro. Or at least acknowledge the well-attended games. Otherwise, I & many others here will ignore you as a lying, agenda-driven fool.

I have a photo from the game saturday and it was probably the 2nd best crowd we've had all year with Mason at #1. It was great to see how packed and loud convo can get for these games

jmu-fan-1981
02-25-2013, 02:49 PM
I'm seeing places that MeadWestVaco has given VCU $3,000,000 for a practice facility, score.

we need some big bucks to come in like that! would be nice to get an indoor pract facility for football.

Duke Dawg
02-25-2013, 02:56 PM
I have a photo from the game saturday and it was probably the 2nd best crowd we've had all year with Mason at #1. It was great to see how packed and loud convo can get for these games


announced attendance was 4,200.

Imagine 3,000 more people in there, a winning tradition....and then you can imagine what it was like back in the day. And why myself, and a handful of others, don't feel getting rid of the Convo is that big a deal.

Win, and pack the place, and I'd bet money NO ONE would be asking for a new basketball arena. the Convo can still rock and be a great place to watch a hoops program.

JMUDukes2014
02-25-2013, 02:59 PM
announced attendance was 4,200.

Imagine 3,000 more people in there, a winning tradition....and then you can imagine what it was like back in the day. And why myself, and a handful of others, don't feel getting rid of the Convo is that big a deal.

Win, and pack the place, and I'd bet money NO ONE would be asking for a new basketball arena. the Convo can still rock and be a great place to watch a hoops program.

Even some of the most memorable arenas are dumps. Does anyone go to Cameron Indoor for how pretty it looks? No they go for basketball. Even though the attendance said 4,200 it felt a lot louder than that and it was certainly rocking.

JMUDuke25
02-25-2013, 03:03 PM
yep, you get rid of Brady now, it is a total re-build. think 10 or less wins. Maybe in 4-5 years, if we hire an excellent coach, we are competitive again.


Why is it a total rebuild with a new coach but not with Brady? The only returning players with experience are Cooke, Curry,Nation, Bessick, Marks, and Hood. And possibly Semenov I guess. I think it's the same struggles next year regardless of who the coach is.

I think you keep Brady if you believe in him or replace him if you don't. But either way it's going to require patience next year because we're going to take a step back most likely unless the incoming class is very very good.

fleeee1
02-25-2013, 03:19 PM
We can do A LOT better.

who do you have in mind that fits in our budget? i'm not ripping on you, i'm just asking an honest question. whenever you fire someone (or choose not to retain, in Brady's case), you need to know you have someone who is going to be better. so i'm curious if you could give me a few names that would work with our budget, and who would be in a better position at JMU than their current job.

ranger
02-25-2013, 03:20 PM
It is time for Brady to go. Talk to players past and present and they will tell you the man has very little control over players both on and off the court. Bowles and others talk(ed) back to him in practice or simply ignore him. When things get tight in games you can count on a general lack of discipline to do JMU in. This is not an accident. If you know or can reach out to former Brady players ask them about how many players come back to practice on time after the Christmas break. I am not talking about a couple of hours or even one day here and I am not talking about one player. Some of Bradys fans might also reach out to some of the current freshman in order to reaize that this group is not all that happy and Brady returning might result in one or more leaving. I would rather take a shot at an unknown assistant than watch this mess for one more year. In the worst year in CAA history we are right in the middle of the pack at the end of his 5th year.
Time to say good by.

HyperDuke
02-25-2013, 03:27 PM
Ranger, more details, less cryptic rumors about freshmen leaving. I promise we're listening to you.

I would say disgruntled former players don't tell me much about Brady's current & future quality of work. Not ignoring it, just saying I see a different team this year & want to give him credit for changing.

NH/JMU Saxkow
02-25-2013, 03:33 PM
Why is it a total rebuild with a new coach but not with Brady? The only returning players with experience are Cooke, Curry,Nation, Bessick, Marks, and Hood. And possibly Semenov I guess. I think it's the same struggles next year regardless of who the coach is.

I think you keep Brady if you believe in him or replace him if you don't. But either way it's going to require patience next year because we're going to take a step back most likely unless the incoming class is very very good.

I think the assumption/hope is that those players fit Brady's coaching philosophy. If you bring in a new coach with a new system, those players could become worthless. Of course, that would be assuming that they stay with a new coach - depending on who we hire, one or more of those players could just decide to transfer out.

dunkanddukin
02-25-2013, 05:07 PM
I wasn't referring to Brady. And I didn't say "court".

Yea, so 8 posts into a thread entitled The Brady Situation, asking simply about whether to extend his contract or not, you take the opportunity to once again bash the Admin and take another unprovoked, unnecessary shot at rumor mongering.

Figured as much. Top shelf.

BSKB 24
02-25-2013, 05:18 PM
Ranger, more details, less cryptic rumors about freshmen leaving. I promise we're listening to you.

I would say disgruntled former players don't tell me much about Brady's current & future quality of work. Not ignoring it, just saying I see a different team this year & want to give him credit for changing.

Interesting that when Brady was hired, there was talk of players transferring. None did. Whenever a new coach is hired one of the first things he does is meet with the players and sells himself to them. Prior to a new coach hire when we are in that state of limbo between letting the old coach go and hiring the new one, the AD will usually meet with the team and tell them to hang in there, someone new and exciting is on the way.

I played for one coach my first two years at Madison, and then a new coach my junior year and then a new coach my senior year. I wasn't there to play for a "certain" coach. I loved playing for all three coaches and each one was a great coach. We make too much out of this, they will leave if we bring in a new coach stuff. In fact, they might be more solid than ever at JMU when they meet the new coach.

HyperDuke
02-25-2013, 05:22 PM
Ranger clearly knows something about a specific freshman wanting out. I just want him to share that info. Surely he wouldn't blow that smoke without backing it up in some way.

rufus
02-25-2013, 05:42 PM
Yea, so 8 posts into a thread entitled The Brady Situation, asking simply about whether to extend his contract or not, you take the opportunity to once again bash the Admin and take another unprovoked, unnecessary shot at rumor mongering.

Figured as much. Top shelf.

When did I bash the administration? I actually stated that they would likely retain Brady, and that I agree with that decision. Wow, what a brutal rebuke of the administration!

As for the rumor mongering, I was simply alluding to Dukie's oft-repeated references to the behavior of a certain JMU coach. He is not alone in making those claims, and they are certainly not some sort of dark secret to be avoided.

dunkanddukin
02-25-2013, 05:53 PM
When did I bash the administration? I actually stated that they would likely retain Brady, and that I agree with that decision. Wow, what a brutal rebuke of the administration!

As for the rumor mongering, I was simply alluding to Dukie's oft-repeated references to the behavior of a certain JMU coach. He is not alone in making those claims, and they are certainly not some sort of dark secret to be avoided.

Yea, okay. Whatever you say. This is some endorsement for sure.

And why even bring up the rumor mongering thing again? Does this thread have ANY mention of another Coach in it? But do whatever you like, it's a free board. If assisting in spreading nasty personal rumors is your thing have at it. I just have no real use for the practice.


Even if that record is a shade under .500, I think that is more than good enough for our leadership. At JMU, it seems that nothing short of a losing record can get someone fired. Mediocre records (even when combined with off-the-field behavioral issues) are tolerated and even embraced.

rufus
02-25-2013, 05:59 PM
Yea, okay. Whatever you say. This is some endorsement for sure.

I believe that the administration recognizes its limitations to a degree, and will act accordingly. I actually think that a good leader recognizes his or her limitations. If our admin knows that they can't do better than Brady, I applaud them for not making a change.

olddawg
02-25-2013, 06:45 PM
Dang, I though this thread was about the "Bonnie Situation"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7yO4e9h5Mg&feature=player_detailpage

jmudukes001
02-25-2013, 07:11 PM
announced attendance was 4,200.

Imagine 3,000 more people in there, a winning tradition....and then you can imagine what it was like back in the day. And why myself, and a handful of others, don't feel getting rid of the Convo is that big a deal.

Win, and pack the place, and I'd bet money NO ONE would be asking for a new basketball arena. the Convo can still rock and be a great place to watch a hoops program.

Exactly. It is an awesome place to be when it is full and going crazy. I played some golf one time with Dick Tarrant and he talked about how amazing an atmosphere it was when UR played there in the Lefty days. Those were great days and those of us there in the late 80s through mid 90s were very lucky. If they only did back then like they did in the A-10 and have the post season championship game at the court of the higher seeded team (and not the dreaded Coliseum), we would have made several NCAA appearances.

jmudukes001
02-25-2013, 07:13 PM
I believe that the administration recognizes its limitations to a degree, and will act accordingly. I actually think that a good leader recognizes his or her limitations. If our admin knows that they can't do better than Brady, I applaud them for not making a change.

Are you saying limitations financially? Just trying to understand your point.

If our admin knows they can't do better than Brady, then we are really in trouble.

JMUHarpoo
02-25-2013, 07:23 PM
Not getting Semenov back is a huge letdown. Still the Dukes have the ability to beat any CAA team on a neutral court. However, the converse is true as well. There simply is not a favorite to win the automatic bid and I suspect the champion will have some good fortune in addition to playing 3 solid games.
Back out the depleted Hofstra team and you could place any of the remaining 6 on one side of a die. Roll the die and get a different champion every time. Perhaps it isn't quite that even with Northeastern only needing 2 wins instead of 3, but there is very little separation between the 1-6 seeds.
Each game will probably have a legitimate line of 4 pts or less. i.e. #6 seed Drexel would be a pickem with #1 seed Northeastern as of right now.
All of that just tells me that Brady's book hasn't been written yet.
3 wins in Richmond cures all ills.

dunkanddukin
02-25-2013, 08:15 PM
Not getting Semenov back is a huge letdown. Still the Dukes have the ability to beat any CAA team on a neutral court. However, the converse is true as well. There simply is not a favorite to win the automatic bid and I suspect the champion will have some good fortune in addition to playing 3 solid games.
Back out the depleted Hofstra team and you could place any of the remaining 6 on one side of a die. Roll the die and get a different champion every time. Perhaps it isn't quite that even with Northeastern only needing 2 wins instead of 3, but there is very little separation between the 1-6 seeds.
Each game will probably have a legitimate line of 4 pts or less. i.e. #6 seed Drexel would be a pickem with #1 seed Northeastern as of right now.
All of that just tells me that Brady's book hasn't been written yet.
3 wins in Richmond cures all ills.

Okay, so lets go with that. 3 wins in Richmond and he's safe. Is the converse true here as well? 2 wins and he's gone? or does it take NO wins to let him walk? is hr safe with a Monday appearance?

84Breeze
02-25-2013, 08:49 PM
Pretty sure if we win the tournament he is not going to be let go. Outside of that who knows? I am leaning towards extending him (2-3 years) and see what we can build with this freshman class. The grass is not always greener!

jmudukes001
02-25-2013, 09:01 PM
who do you have in mind that fits in our budget? i'm not ripping on you, i'm just asking an honest question. whenever you fire someone (or choose not to retain, in Brady's case), you need to know you have someone who is going to be better. so i'm curious if you could give me a few names that would work with our budget, and who would be in a better position at JMU than their current job.

There is a nice list of possibilities on the ODU CUSA board. They are really into it, even having their own brackets to name the coach that they want the most. Don't get me wrong-- I can't stand ODU but because they are looking for a coach, it does provide some good names and possibilities for us.

From what I read here last year after the season, there was some looking around by JMU and some interest from good coaches, but paying two coaches at once was not an option. Who knows if this was accurate. But at least the admin has had some time to think about these candidates.

There are many names and possibilities for this, but here are a few:

For the up and coming assistants, Mike Rhoades of VCU seems to be the best and perhaps most logical choice with his VA connections. R-MC and then VCU. He will be looked at by other schools but hopefully staying in state and going with the challenge of getting JMU basketball back would interest him. Plenty of other quality young assistant coaches out there.

As far as interest grabbing former head coaches, Jeff Capel and Dave Leitao are on the list. They have VA connections obviously as well. It would be great to snag one of them. If you think no chance for them, then there is former Wake coach Dino Gaudio and former UVA coach Jeff Jones.

Again, this is just 5 of a possible 100 candidates. I am not going way out there with the Bruce Pearl or dare I say Seth Greenberg things, although I would love the intensity of either of them on our sideline.

Since I think we need a new direction and a connection between coach and JMU Nation, I think any of these would provide a spark.

JMU2004
02-25-2013, 09:17 PM
Rhoades would be the best hire. Winner at RMC, and Shaka gives him constant praise.

dukesfan71
02-25-2013, 09:34 PM
Rhoades would be the best hire. Winner at RMC, and Shaka gives him constant praise.

Randolph Macon has had 4 coaches in the past 60 years. Paul Webb and Hal Nunnally had 65 % career winning percentages while playing Division 2. Rhoades had a 72 percent winning percentage while there but all as Division 3. Rhoades replacement at Macon has about an 80 percent winning percentage in his 4 years at Macon. Sherman and Dean would have winning records at Macon. Bo Ryan of Wisconsin Coached Division 3 and had an 82 percent winning percentage in 15 years at Wisconsin Platteville. He won Multiple National Championships there. In the 14 years since he left, they have made the playoffs once. Rhoades maybe a good coach but I am not sold on a Division 3 coach who does not stand out from the other coaches they have had there. I keep reading his name and I am just adding some caution to it. I hope we win 3 more games this year and Coach Brady stays.

JMU2004
02-25-2013, 09:53 PM
Randolph Macon has had 4 coaches in the past 60 years. Paul Webb and Hal Nunnally had 65 % career winning percentages while playing Division 2. Rhoades had a 72 percent winning percentage while there but all as Division 3. Rhoades replacement at Macon has about an 80 percent winning percentage in his 4 years at Macon. Sherman and Dean would have winning records at Macon. Bo Ryan of Wisconsin Coached Division 3 and had an 82 percent winning percentage in 15 years at Wisconsin Platteville. He won Multiple National Championships there. In the 14 years since he left, they have made the playoffs once. Rhoades maybe a good coach but I am not sold on a Division 3 coach who does not stand out from the other coaches they have had there. I keep reading his name and I am just adding some caution to it. I hope we win 3 more games this year and Coach Brady stays.

He has a sterling reputation around Richmond. I get the concern about D3, but his work at VCU has been phenomenal as well. I wanted him last year, and I think this is his last year as an assistant.

94Duke
02-25-2013, 10:22 PM
The team this year has been fun to watch. I continue to invest time following this MBB program at my own peril.

After following them all year I hate to say this but I think they get beat in Wburg and lose to Drexel in rd1.
These a bad match ups. Shaver knows how to beat us. Drexel is too physical for us and we beat them when they were short handed.
At that point the admin will just go to the manual used for Sherman and Mr. Keener following their pivotal season.

JMU_Rocks!
02-25-2013, 10:28 PM
I would be surprised if we win against W&M - I don't think it matters for our opponent, maybe just the seed. Should we sweep 3 in the tournament a 20 win CAA team somehow sounds much better than a 19 win team.

I think we beat both Drexel and NE in the tournament - but lose in the finals.

capn kitt
02-26-2013, 08:05 AM
Why is it a total rebuild with a new coach but not with Brady? The only returning players with experience are Cooke, Curry,Nation, Bessick, Marks, and Hood. And possibly Semenov I guess. I think it's the same struggles next year regardless of who the coach is.


Nothing is certain, so you have to move based on probabilities. Brady stays and probably all of those guys are in purple next year. Brady leaves and probably some of those guys leave as well, based on past experience of losing players when a coach leaves.

You say the "only" returning players and then list a good core of six young players. We probably struggle next year with them and then probably compete after that. If we lose half that group then we probably struggle for several years no matter how good the coach is.

JMU2004
02-26-2013, 08:52 AM
http://www.vcuathletics.com/information/directory/bios/Rhoades_Mike

ESPN had this to say when naming him the #6 assistant under 40:
"Mike Rhoades (VCU): In a short span, Rhoades has gone from a Division III assistant at Randolph-Macon (Ashland, Va.) to a top assistant under Shaka Smart. VCU has been defined by its gritty defense, better-than-they’re-ranked prospects and passion. Rhoades has helped the Rams embrace every tenet of Smart’s philosophy, one that helped VCU reach the Final Four last season. “He’s great,” Smart says."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJzJhAWJCC4

This program NEEDS ENERGY. Rhoades would bring buckets of energy. He is a great X's and O's guy, and he recruits with the same energy as he coaches. I know he was extremely interested in the JMU job last year. I hope he still is....because if we lose out, I think our admin will can Brady.



Honest question....is he making more as Assistant HC at VCU than we would pay our Head Coach?

capn kitt
02-26-2013, 09:44 AM
who do you have in mind that fits in our budget? i'm not ripping on you, i'm just asking an honest question. whenever you fire someone (or choose not to retain, in Brady's case), you need to know you have someone who is going to be better. so i'm curious if you could give me a few names that would work with our budget, and who would be in a better position at JMU than their current job.

Right. There may be a list out there of good available coaches, but how many of them want to come to JMU for what we can pay? And there are no guarantees; what if we fire Brady but canít get anyone on that list to come (see football OC discussion)? Then we are in a worse position than before.

capn kitt
02-26-2013, 10:05 AM
Here is another take on the situation in the risk assessment model. Risk assessments compare likelihood vs. impact (or severity).

Brady best case: program drops off slightly next year but competes for CAA championship for next several years (probability: med-high).

New Coach best case: keeps most of roster together (probability: med-low); program drops off next year but competes for CAA championship within 2-3 years (probability: med-low). Probability of JMU getting lucky enough to find as-yet undiscovered talent, or find the money to bring in a proven coach, that can pull off such a feat: low.

Brady worst case: program continues to suffer same setbacks (injuries, transfers) in the next few years and struggles to remain a .500-level club (probability: med-low). Worst case end result: Brady fired after 3 mores seasons.

New Coach worst case: new coach unable to keep roster together and bottom falls out of program, causing several years of losing before being competitive again or until another coaching change (probability: med-low).

Deez Nuts
02-26-2013, 10:12 AM
The convo go straight up LOUD last Saturday on a couple of those last possessions. Louder than Mason loud. I wish it could be like that on a regular basis. Dare to dream.

BSKB 24
02-26-2013, 10:14 AM
Here is another take on the situation in the risk assessment model. Risk assessments compare likelihood vs. impact (or severity).

Brady best case: program drops off slightly next year but competes for CAA championship for next several years (probability: med-LOW).

New Coach best case: keeps most of roster together (probability: med-HIGH); program drops off next year but competes for CAA championship within 2-3 years (probability: med-HIGH). Probability of JMU getting lucky enough to find as-yet undiscovered talent, or find the money to bring in a proven coach, that can pull off such a feat:MEDIUM.

Brady worst case: program continues to suffer same setbacks (injuries, transfers) in the next few years and struggles to remain a .500-level club (probability: HIGH). Worst case end result: Brady fired after 3 mores seasons.

New Coach worst case: new coach unable to keep roster together and bottom falls out of program, causing several years of losing before being competitive again or until another coaching change (probability: med-low).

You neglect to add another element to your assessment model. Best case: new coach brings 4 great recruits with him. You may recall that Brady brought Seme, Wells, Moore and one other with him when he came on board. It cost us $100K, but that isn't a bad price to pay if they are good recruits.

And you are assigning your opinion of probability to each category? On what basis are you arriving at such probabilities? Just your opinion or is there some science involved? I changed some of them just for fun, but they are probably just as likely as your projections.

Coach
02-26-2013, 10:16 AM
Ok, I've returned to the Zone, because I'm a sucker for the coaching carousel. Here's a question I have for the JMU faithful. Right now, would you trade Matt Brady for JMU alum, Kevin Sutton? He's a JMU alum. Current assistant at GWU. Ran a really successful prep school program at Montverde Academy. What are your thoughts?

jmu08
02-26-2013, 10:21 AM
Honest question....is he making more as Assistant HC at VCU than we would pay our Head Coach?

Doesn't look like it. All three assistants at VCU now make around $455,000 combined according to a ram's forum. Obviously depends on how that is distributed, but we can likely pay a VCU assistant HC more than what they are getting now.

JMU2004
02-26-2013, 10:35 AM
Doesn't look like it. All three assistants at VCU now make around $455,000 combined according to a ram's forum. Obviously depends on how that is distributed, but we can likely pay a VCU assistant HC more than what they are getting now.

Good. I know Shaka is making bank, but I wasn't sure you much his Assistants were making.

olddawg
02-26-2013, 10:58 AM
Brady was a top assistant at St Joes and leveraged that into the head job at Marist. He did so the season following their undefeated regular season, #1 ranking and Elite 8 run. It's not inconcievable that a top assistant from VCUs' Final Four team could be plucked to JMU should they choose to make a change. I don't think, however, that we'd get him for the dreaded words: " a competitive salary".

purplehazed
02-26-2013, 11:09 AM
We are disecting the HC basketball salary, let's to the same for the AD position. What does then AD spot pay at JMU? What is the state average? I have no idea but it would be insteresting if JMUJ is par with other states schools at the AD slot but not the the HC mens basketball.

rufus
02-26-2013, 11:48 AM
We are disecting the HC basketball salary, let's to the same for the AD position. What does then AD spot pay at JMU? What is the state average? I have no idea but it would be insteresting if JMUJ is par with other states schools at the AD slot but not the the HC mens basketball.

JMU doesn't have a true AD. We have an accountant, who reports to another accountant, who reports to the president. It seems that the decision-making responsibilities that would typically be owned by an AD are actually owned by the chief accountant at JMU. I believe that our "AD" role is more of an accounting job, so I don't know if you can compare salaries apples to apples with other schools.

If anything, it might make more sense to compare the salary of Charlie King to that of other ADs. Even that comparison isn't the best, because he is sort of a hybrid accountant/AD.

JMU2004
02-26-2013, 11:55 AM
Charlie King : $215,000
Jeff Bourne: $180,000 with his wife pulling in another $86,000 as Director of Tech Transfer, whatever that is.

capn kitt
02-26-2013, 11:59 AM
Interesting that when Brady was hired, there was talk of players transferring. None did.

And you think this makes the argument that we should change coaches and think there is a good chance everyone will stay?! Looking justing at JMU's history from Dillard to Brady, I would say that was unusual. I don't have good enough memory to recount the specific examples. If anything, that makes the point we should keep Brady because he sold himself well enough to keep players in the program.

capn kitt
02-26-2013, 12:07 PM
You neglect to add another element to your assessment model. Best case: new coach brings 4 great recruits with him. You may recall that Brady brought Seme, Wells, Moore and one other with him when he came on board. It cost us $100K, but that isn't a bad price to pay if they are good recruits.
OK, but you fail to assign the possibility of "bringing 4 great recruits with him" a probability, so I'll do it for you: low


And you are assigning your opinion of probability to each category? On what basis are you arriving at such probabilities? Just your opinion or is there some science involved? I changed some of them just for fun, but they are probably just as likely as your projections.
Of course it is my opinion, but I'm basing it on history of JMU coaching changes (since that is most familiar to me). A more educated person could study all college basketball coaching changes and make it more scientific. I would hope some folks in the administration who get paid to do this would do some of that in their analysis.

purplehazed
02-26-2013, 12:38 PM
Charlie King : $215,000
Jeff Bourne: $180,000 with his wife pulling in another $86,000 as Director of Tech Transfer, whatever that is.

Those numbers sound averge for the titles. King's number seems more low end than high end. Maybe the statue of King in the Forbes Center is an agreed bonus.

jmu-fan-1981
02-26-2013, 01:00 PM
Those numbers sound averge for the titles. King's number seems more low end than high end. Maybe the statue of King in the Forbes Center is an agreed bonus.

what statue?

HyperDuke
02-26-2013, 01:04 PM
Maybe the statue of King in the Forbes Center is an agreed bonus.

I was in Forbes over the weekend & didn't notice this. Did I miss sarcasm?

WhitDragn
02-26-2013, 01:13 PM
Charlie King : $215,000

Less than ODU, same as Radford. New hire at Mason this spring (not sure who was covering the post before if anyone). More than W&M.


Jeff Bourne: $180,000 with his wife pulling in another $86,000 as Director of Tech Transfer, whatever that is.

Less than ODU and Mason. More than Radford. Slightly more than W&M.

Does it matter what his wife does and makes? No.


JMU doesn't have a true AD. We have an accountant, who reports to another accountant, who reports to the president.

I've stayed out of this over the years because I really don't care but it's annoying me today. Why does it really matter if Bourne got a business degree as an undergrad and practiced as an accountant prior pursuing a degree in sports management and working in athletics?

Does Wood Selig hold a mental edge because his undergrad was in Psych?

i agree the extra reporting layer is annoying and probably causes things to occur (or not occur) because of the additional discussions incurred. But as you clearly pointed out, the chain ends at the Presidents desk (well, BOV really) just like everywhere else.

To stay on topic, sort of, extend Brady 3 years on a very tight leash easily cut at a later time unless Mike Rhoades is begging for a Job.

JMU2004
02-26-2013, 01:17 PM
Less than ODU, same as Radford. New hire at Mason this spring (not sure who was covering the post before if anyone). More than W&M.



Less than ODU and Mason. More than Radford. Slightly more than W&M.

Does whit matter what his wife does and makes? No.



I've stayed out of this over the years because I really don't care but it's annoying me today. Why does it really matter if Bourne got a business degree as an undergrad and practiced as an accountant prior pursuing a degree in sports management and working in athletics?

Does Wood Selig hold a mental edge because his undergrad was in Psych?

i agree the extra reporting layer is annoying and probably causes things to occur (or not occur) because of the additional discussions incurred. But as you clearly pointed out, the chain ends at the Presidents desk (well, BOV really) just like everywhere else.

To stay on topic, sort of, extend Brady 3 years on a very tight leash easily cut at a later time unless Mike Rhoades is begging for a Job.

Only mentioned the wife to show total family compensation from JMU. Man, if my wife and I pulled down $265,000 in H-Burg, we would be living royally!

HyperDuke
02-26-2013, 01:34 PM
To stay on topic, sort of, extend Brady 3 years on a very tight leash easily cut at a later time unless Mike Rhoades is begging for a Job.

If we want to keep Brady, but are afraid of a lengthy contract, we should give Waddell at Towson a call. According to their AD mouthpiece on the Zone, his "3-year extension" was actually 3 1-year extensions or something like that. So when they decided to move forward, there was no buyout.

Dukie
02-26-2013, 01:42 PM
Were Matt's problems with players a product of his inability to manage them or the fact that they were transfer players who had problems at other schools too? I heard a rumor that Hitchens needs one class to graduate. Who leaves school needing only one class for a diploma? I heard Bowles stopped attending classes his last semester when he was in good academic standing prior to that point. Are these smart decisions? Does this sound like players who are coach-able?

Matt took on problem children from other programs in an effort to get good in a hurry. Supposedly, he is no longer doing this. As long as he continues to recruit like he did last year, I think he will be successful at JMU. If Ranger or someone else has more insight to the program than what I am seeing, please let us know. If Matt does not have control of his program, that is a different story.

BSKB 24
02-26-2013, 01:52 PM
And you think this makes the argument that we should change coaches and think there is a good chance everyone will stay?! Looking justing at JMU's history from Dillard to Brady, I would say that was unusual. I don't have good enough memory to recount the specific examples. If anything, that makes the point we should keep Brady because he sold himself well enough to keep players in the program.
Nowhere in my post did I say or insinuate that we should change coaches. I merely point out that for each scenario you present there is an equal possibility that the opposite is true. You presented it as a "risk assessment". I don't see where there is any risk assessment, just your guess.

purplehazed
02-26-2013, 02:47 PM
I was in Forbes over the weekend & didn't notice this. Did I miss sarcasm?

There is a shoulder up bronze likeness of Mr. King in the Forbes Center. Standing in front of the large window facing the quad it is on the left, left of the same type of likeness President Rose.

mistrhanky
02-26-2013, 02:56 PM
Perhaps would could fire Brady and get Hal Mumme?

Too Soon?

HyperDuke
02-26-2013, 02:59 PM
There is a shoulder up bronze likeness of Mr. King in the Forbes Center. Standing in front of the large window facing the quad it is on the left, left of the same type of likeness President Rose.

Hmm, wonder if they move this when they host All-State band auditions...

Dukeman1
02-26-2013, 03:24 PM
Accountants focus on costs and expenses; they are most likley to lose home play-off game bids (2004 and 2011) because they worry about everything. Accountants can be good people and they do serve a valuable purpose to most organizatons.

Revenue generators are very different from accountants, they focus on revenue/branding/potential.

Whan colleges are run by accountants; giving percentages (7%) will be low, sponsors will be hard to find, and stakeholder morale will be poor.

In business, that company will be taken over or will fail, that is what makes capitalism so beautiful. With government, there are no inherent correcting dynamics.

JMU2004
02-26-2013, 03:33 PM
Accountants focus on costs and expenses; they are most likley to lose home play-off game bids (2004 and 2011) because they worry about everything. Accountants can be good people and they do serve a valuable purpose to most organizatons.

Revenue generators are very different from accountants, they focus on revenue/branding/potential.

Whan colleges are run by accountants; giving percentages (7%) will be low, sponsors will be hard to find, and stakeholder morale will be poor.

In business, that company will be taken over or will fail, that is what makes capitalism so beautiful. With government, there are no inherent correcting dynamics.

I chuckle at you characterization of accountants. I am an accountant with bachelors degrees in Finance and Accounting and a CPA designation. You would be surprised to know how many "revenue generators" are accountants, especially in the investment world. If you can't read a balance sheet, you shouldn't be allocating capital.

There is plenty wrong with JMU, but this same old "accountants are spineless weenies" notion is stupid

Longhorn
02-26-2013, 04:35 PM
There is a shoulder up bronze likeness of Mr. King in the Forbes Center. Standing in front of the large window facing the quad it is on the left, left of the same type of likeness President Rose.

The form of those artistic works are called "busts"....a poetic and fitting description of both men? :tongue_smilie:

JMU
02-26-2013, 04:55 PM
The form of those artistic works are called "busts"....a poetic and fitting description of both men? :tongue_smilie:

Haha - this made me laugh!!!

purplehazed
02-26-2013, 05:02 PM
The form of those artistic works are called "busts"....a poetic and fitting description of both men? :tongue_smilie:

Initially I used the word busts but was not certain about the second s and knowing I'd be corrected by the spelling police I avoided the word altogether. I've now been corrected on word usage...thanks, I now know for certain they next time I need to type busts on the train.

purplehazed
02-26-2013, 05:17 PM
I chuckle at you characterization of accountants. I am an accountant with bachelors degrees in Finance and Accounting and a CPA designation. You would be surprised to know how many "revenue generators" are accountants, especially in the investment world. If you can't read a balance sheet, you shouldn't be allocating capital.

There is plenty wrong with JMU, but this same old "accountants are spineless weenies" notion is stupid

I am also a CPA. I get the bean counter comments from the so called visionaries at work. I've noticed they rarely meet with firm significant clients without me in the room (me posting on the zone from my phone) to bail them out if need be...

JMUHarpoo
02-26-2013, 07:14 PM
I also work in Finance and I thoroughly enjoy most of Dukeman's posts. His over the top instigations have enough truth in them to be funny while also making you think hmmmmmmm (finger touches temple).
Everybody can have an opinion, but I'd like to know which AD's in Division 1 have less gumption?
Bourne doesn't fit the athletic principles of aggression, giving your best effort, challenging yourself to be better etc. I get the feeling from his body of work that he doesn't want to risk much because he just might lose. If you are scared of losing you shouldn't be working in athletics because every contest ends with one winner and one loser. The concept carries over into finance as well with expense management principles that restrict growth due to lack of investment in the future.
Alger can change the leaders in house if he sees fit.

Dukie
02-26-2013, 07:30 PM
If Alger replaces Bourne then he has to replace King too. Not saying I want that but if he sees leadership as the problem, leadership at JMU was a three headed horse. One horse retired so now we have two.

Mickey does not want a 12th game unless it is a weak 1AA opponent. I don't see JMU scheduling another patsy for him to pad his record.

lazyjc22
02-26-2013, 07:35 PM
Perhaps would could fire Brady and get Hal Mumme?

Too Soon?

I'm for it. We might actually run a play from time to time on offense :)

jmudukes001
02-26-2013, 09:09 PM
[QUOTE=JMU2004;1860623]http://www.vcuathletics.com/information/directory/bios/Rhoades_Mike

ESPN had this to say when naming him the #6 assistant under 40:
"Mike Rhoades (VCU): In a short span, Rhoades has gone from a Division III assistant at Randolph-Macon (Ashland, Va.) to a top assistant under Shaka Smart. VCU has been defined by its gritty defense, better-than-they’re-ranked prospects and passion. Rhoades has helped the Rams embrace every tenet of Smart’s philosophy, one that helped VCU reach the Final Four last season. “He’s great,” Smart says."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJzJhAWJCC4

This program NEEDS ENERGY. Rhoades would bring buckets of energy. He is a great X's and O's guy, and he recruits with the same energy as he coaches. I know he was extremely interested in the JMU job last year. I hope he still is....because if we lose out, I think our admin will can Brady.






If your last paragraph is true, then that is good news. I am sure he is on the list of potential candidates. Totally agree about the program needing energy. This would be a good get for us.

rufus
02-26-2013, 10:12 PM
I am also a CPA. I get the bean counter comments from the so called visionaries at work. I've noticed they rarely meet with firm significant clients without me in the room (me posting on the zone from my phone) to bail them out if need be...

I certainly have no issue with accountants, but our organizational structure is odd in my opinion. We have an AD with apparently very limited decision-making authority reporting to the chief accountant, who apparently calls the shots when it comes to athletics. I don't know of any other Division I university with this sort of arrangement. Very strange.

Dukes2004
02-26-2013, 10:39 PM
I think he stays. We shall know soon enough.

capn kitt
02-27-2013, 08:30 AM
I don't see where there is any risk assessment, just your guess.
Risk assessments are a form of guessing: educated guessing. And they are based on some assumptions. Namely, that past behavior is an indicator to future performance.

They can't possibly be perfectly reliable, but they are one tool used to make sound decisions. This thread is about what decision should be made, and I presented the argument in the form of weighing the risk of each alternative. Otherwise we are just wagging a guess.

BSKB 24
02-27-2013, 08:43 AM
Risk assessments are a form of guessing: educated guessing. And they are based on some assumptions. Namely, that past behavior is an indicator to future performance.

So, what you are saying is we can pretty much count on continuing to be a .500 ball club and in the lower half of the CAA; we are currently in 6th place, making an early exit from the tournament? Averaging around 2,600 attendance and always living for the hope of next year?

Duke Dawg
02-27-2013, 10:49 AM
we could go splash out the cash for a "name" coach. But it's unlikely the name coach will be free of baggage of some sort. and there is certainly no guarantee of anything, even with a name coach.

See: Hewitt, Paul; $660,000/per year

capn kitt
02-27-2013, 12:14 PM
So, what you are saying is we can pretty much count on continuing to be a .500 ball club and in the lower half of the CAA; we are currently in 6th place, making an early exit from the tournament? Averaging around 2,600 attendance and always living for the hope of next year?

No, I'm not happy with those numbers either. But you can also look at it as trending upward:
2010 CAA finish: 11th
2011: 6th
2012: 8th
2013: tied for 4th

BSKB 24
02-27-2013, 12:30 PM
Well, if you look at tiebreaker rules, we are in 6th place. If every team was in the tournament currently we would be the #6 seed. One game to go and we can still move up if Mason loses and we win.

Dukes84
02-27-2013, 01:16 PM
Mason plays at DE. If they lose and Dukes win, JMU would play W&M instead of Drexel in first round. Either way, small margin of error with this team. I'll go with Mason to win tourney, although they're not playing well.

1duped
02-28-2013, 02:51 AM
http://www.vcuathletics.com/information/directory/bios/Rhoades_Mike

Honest question....is he making more as Assistant HC at VCU than we would pay our Head Coach?

Answer to your question about Rhoades salary at VCU, he is getting paid $180,000 a year with a little bit of bonus money thrown in. Brady makes close to $300,000. I know people who worked under Mike at RMC and they pretty much think he is a good guy and a decent coach. It's a big step up from a D-III head coach to our level. Shaka brought him in because he can recruit the Richmond area talent and he is a decent bench coach. I wouldn't trade Brady for MR today or tomorrow

Dukeman
02-28-2013, 06:50 AM
A first round loss to W&M has been the standard under Brady

Dukes84
02-28-2013, 10:48 AM
A first round loss to W&M has been the standard under Brady

Well, at least you know what to expect.

JMU2004
02-28-2013, 10:56 AM
Answer to your question about Rhoades salary at VCU, he is getting paid $180,000 a year with a little bit of bonus money thrown in. Brady makes close to $300,000. I know people who worked under Mike at RMC and they pretty much think he is a good guy and a decent coach. It's a big step up from a D-III head coach to our level. Shaka brought him in because he can recruit the Richmond area talent and he is a decent bench coach. I wouldn't trade Brady for MR today or tomorrow


agree to disagree. I would trade MB for MR any day of the week, and 3 times on Tuesday.

potus#4
02-28-2013, 11:03 AM
A first round loss to W&M has been the standard under Brady

JMU's record vs W&M in first round CAA Tourny games is 1-1 during the Brady years.

DirtyDukes
02-28-2013, 11:05 AM
JMU's record vs W&M in first round CAA Tourny games is 1-1 during the Brady years.

Hey man, don't use facts to get in the way of Dukeman's narrative.

Dukes84
02-28-2013, 11:26 AM
It's actually 0-2.

Dukes84
02-28-2013, 11:30 AM
The last two times we played them...can't recall who we played in Year 1, except for losing to Mason, I believe it was. Beat Drexel, lost to W&M in year 2. Lost to W&M in year 3. Lost to Wilmington in year 4.

Dukes84
02-28-2013, 11:34 AM
The last two times we played them...can't recall who we played in Year 1, except for losing to Mason, I believe it was. Beat Drexel, lost to W&M in year 2. Lost to W&M in year 3. Lost to Wilmington in year 4.

It was W&M that we beat in year 1 before losing to mason. So it's 1-2.

Top Dawg
02-28-2013, 11:38 AM
It was W&M that we beat in year 1 before losing to mason. So it's 1-2.
So in FIRST round games it is 1-1. Overall it's 1-2.

Dukes84
02-28-2013, 11:49 AM
So in FIRST round games it is 1-1. Overall it's 1-2.

Correctomundo!

potus#4
02-28-2013, 12:20 PM
Correctomundo!

You could have just trusted me. :wink5:

Rock House Duke
03-02-2013, 09:11 PM
I have been outspoken about keeping Brady on other threads but I have not posted on this one. After the loss last week against Ga. State I have not defended him on these boards. Tonight we pulled out another gutsy win on the road after trailing 22pts.

We are now setup well for a good run at the CAA tourny with the way the seeds worked out. We can definitely win this thing!

Dukie
03-02-2013, 11:36 PM
Dukes go 7-2 at home and 4-5 on the road in the CAA this year. Not bad. Finished the season 2-2 with the two loses both being by two points. NU made 18-20 free throws and GSU made 17-18. If both teams shoot a normal average from the foul line, JMU likely wins both by a comfortable margin.